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Shots, shots, shots - The Dharma of LMFAO and Lil' Jon
A wise teacher said:
If you ain't gettin' drunk get da fuck out da club.
I've been hearing this chorus of shots shots shots at the clubs in Cancun and bars in Park City, and I'll admit I've been doing some shots myself. Patrón, and some nasty-ass concoction called a "Scooby Doo" the Cancun bartenders foisted upon us. They were really helpful in getting me to act like an idiot. Though my meditation practice helped me to notice when I was about to say something hurtful, and keep my mouth shut.
So how's that work, Mr. Buddhist? Someone on Facebook just reminded me, "When you meet the Buddha, slay the Buddha." I don't know if this was meant to encourage binge drinking, though. But is there anything wrong with having some crazy fun from time to time?
There's a precept against using intoxicants; sometimes it's described strictly––Thich Nhat Hanh says to not even have one drink. Other teachers say not to use intoxicants to avoid reality. And Chögyam Trungpa had something to say about the positive effects of alcohol. However, my understanding is that drinking was what killed him, so who knows?
I'm in with the "don't avoid reality" camp. I've seen myself full of stress, reaching for a glass of wine. Those seem like ideal moments to sit with whatever emotion I'm feeling, to give up the storyline but to be genuinely willing to experience what's going on.
What's the Middle Way here?
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Worry.
While every topic seems rife with depth and ready for Buddhist deliberation, I worry that erring on the side of seeing the ok in the seemingly harmful creates more harm than good debate.
How about this topic?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20110221/hl_hsn/teenspostingcuttingvideosony...
Do you really want to have an "it's just an experience to cut yourself" discussion around those that might be vulnerable to using that action in a highly confused and harmful way? Wouldn't it be better to simply have a discussion about injury in which we frame bodily harm as harm, while talking about our relationship to it? We don't frame it as, "harm really doesn't exist here, it is just your relationship to it," but as, "harm is harm, and it is best to avoid bodily harm, and here are ways to do it, but what do you do when the unexpected occurs? In what ways do we react?"
You give my brother or sister half an inch in a conversation about how alcohol or drugs are 'ok' and they will launch spectacularly into a complex justification of their addiction for I don't know how many more years. Much better for my brother and sister to see nothing from me but discussions on topics that are deep, thoughtful, and provocative, but do not offer him or her a means to destructive behavior. I am open, honest, and strong, but I have to be very careful with my language.
Those without an addiction are going to find this topic stimulating. Those with an addiction might find it a good reason to keep drinking or using drugs. This website is a public forum, and we should think about how to reach everyone safely, especially those who are the most distressed, who suffer the most, and who are the most confused, while allowing for deep and thoughtful discussions on Buddhism and meditation without having to resort to something I might characterize as 'adult,' 'edgy,' or 'provocative.'
To relieve the confusion and suffering of all human beings, we need to help relieve the causes and conditions of that suffering, including the most harmful habits. Chemicals that do bodily harm and cause addiction are among the MOST ready and able causes of confusion. You may not see it in your family, or that often among your friends, but it is out there, people suffer deeply, and it touches me personally, my family, and the experience of others on this site.
I do not think that this is fertile ground for a public debate, especially justifying Chogyam Trungpa's addiction. For those of us that are not addicts, it is a fun topic; for those who may be struggling with an addiction or have a family member who is struggling, a discussion of how Chogyam Trungpa's addiction was meaningless or how alcohol just is is apt to do more harm than good.
A great show to watch, if you've never personally experienced the suffering that addiction causes, check out:
http://www.aetv.com/intervention/index.jsp
who decides what is harm?
you say cutting is harm. what about body piercing? gauged earlobes? tattoos? are they OK if they have a buddhist theme? L-O-V-E across the knuckles is OK but not H-A-T-E? who draws the line between harm and adornment? are certain painful sexual practices "harm" in your eyes? even between two consenting adults who both want to engage in them?
it's not so simple. it's not about any of these externals. why do you do this? what do you think it says about you? how does it make you feel? does that feeling last? do you need to step it up? where will this take you? is there some other way to achieve what this does?
the problem isn't the behavior; the behavior is a response to a problem.
you didn't make them drink
and you can't make them stop. that's a basic principle of al-anon, nar-anon, co-dependents anon, etc. the only person you can change is yourself. sometimes changing yourself will mean you act differently and they decide to change. but you can't do it for that reason because they may not. you have to do it for yourself, and they have to do it for themselves.
equanimity says we see the situation as it is and accept that that is how it is. we act from a base of loving-kindness and compassion, not from a compulsion to "fix" things. even when we think there is a clear right thing that someone else should do, we can't do it for them.
I didn't view your link, but I don't need to. no one cuts themselves because they read about it or saw a video. they cut themselves because they have deep psychological issues, and cutting seems like a way to alleviate those issues. the psychological issues are still there; the cutting is a symptom, not the problem. treat the problem and the symptom stops.
not talking about it or talking about it in a disparaging way doesn't get to the problem. getting space around your own reactions and seeing the situation clearly so that you are neither blaming nor excusing their behavior leads to help.
check out al anon. if you can get past the god language, it's good stuff.
Honestly.
I find your remarks callous, and your Anonymous identity cowardly.
If you think that your actions do not have an effect on others, you do not understand interdependence.
If you think that you cannot help others, you cannot liberate them from samsara.
Yes, ultimately, each person discovers their own truth.
But, yes, we can and do have an impact on all other beings in every action we take and every word we speak or write.
Do not let philosophy destroy your humanity. Put the heart back in your understanding. Those whose bodies suffer from any form of addiction, self-mutilation, or habitual suffering are not drowning from a lack of ultimate truth. They are confused on a much more here and now level. Help them. Don't pretend that your ambivalence and intellectual understanding of Buddhist philosophy means you can walk around and do nothing.
A helping hand CAN help someone discover their own personal truth. If that weren't the case, there would be no point in teaching meditation.
(PS. Of course it must be the Right kind of help.)
I truly wish you the best
on your path. I hope it works for you. I fear you will continued to be disappointed in others and in yourself for not being able to give help them the help you think they need..
I agree that symptoms should be eased when that's possible. but that's only the first step. you get the symptom under control so that the crisis response is calmed, then you work on the underlying issue. that's the appropriate role for psychiatric meds in most cases; sometimes the diagnosis requires longer-term treatment.
to borrow from recovery: may you have the equanimity to accept the things you cannot change, the compassion to change the things you can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
sorry
I said it badly. my words were unkind. there's an AA slogan -- say what you mean but don't say it mean -- and I phrased it wrong.
I feel your suffering, and I appreciate your deep and heart-felt thoughts on the subject. it's great that you want to help people. I know that desire. but I also know, as the close friend and relative of alcoholics and drug users and as a (maybe former) cutter, you can't save them with your desire to save them. you only increase everyone's suffering, especially your own.
detach with love. see the situation clearly. that doesn't mean you do nothing and it doesn't mean that you don't have compassion or that your heart doesn't break. it isn't easy. but, in my experience, it is the only way to ease suffering.
you can introduce people to the path. you can't pull them along it. they have to see confusion and that there is a way out.
we DO have an impact on others. but we can't know what that impact is. we can't control how someone hears what we say. we can only say what is in our hearts, from a sincere desire to help, but we have to let go of any expectation that it will have a particular result or we will drive ourselves crazy.
that's not intellectual buddhist philosophy. that's decades of time in recovery. as they say in AA, take what you like and leave the rest.
but don't doubt my heart or the truth of my experience. it may not be your experience, but it is my truth.
and sorry, anonymity is part of the recovery path. call me Dawn.
re rinpoche
I talked to a shambhala teacher this weekend who had been a personal assistant to chogyam trungpa and saw him and maezumi roshi in "highly inebriated" condition many times. he said chogyam trungpa never lost control, and even when drunk the rinpoche and the roshi came from a ground of basic goodness so that their comments were still insightful.
for what it's worth. most of the drunks I know wallow even more deeply in their suffering in that condition. it might be different if they slurred wisdom.
in defense of fun...
k, i found the thomas merton quote. i know he's not a buddhist or anything, but i love his writing. it doesn't mention shots, shots, shots, (and of course you don't need 'em to have fun), but going on the assumption that jon is just out having a blast in the clubs and not an alcoholic, maybe there is a some tiny piece of of relevance in this post somewhere. anyways, i always liked this quote, about art and dance and just plain fun:
"Celebration is when we make joy of our love. We like to be together. We like to dance together. We like to make pretty and amusing things. We like to laugh at what we have made. We like to put bright colors on the walls - more bright colors on ourselves. We like our pictures, they are crazy: the craziness of not submitting even though "they," "the others," the ones who make life impossible, seem to have all the power. Celebration is the beginning of confidence, therefore of power.
When we laugh at them, when we celebrate, when we make our lives beautiful, when we give one another joy by loving, be sharing, then we manifest a power they cannot touch. We can be the artisans of a joy they never imagined."
<3
Just a thank you
The dialogue on this thread is amazing - passionate, articulate, engaged - and I'd like to thank Jon for posting a provocative piece, and for all who have written in. It has given me a lot to think about, not just about alcohol, but about the nature of excess and addictive behavior, whatever the source.
Thank you Edoardo
For participating. Thinking of a followup. What's interesting to me here are the concepts. A Buddhist does ______. An alcoholic does ________. Someone who drinks is a _________. Someone who chooses to abstain from drinking is a _________. I find myself making these associations automatically. If I'm being mindful I'm noticing that layer on top of the "primordial dot." I'm already in language before I know it. So fascinating.
it's interesting
that all but one of the people who responded to this blog are from families where alcohol abuse was a factor so we're familiar with the effects of excessive drinking.
I've seen too many people do stupid things when drunk to believe that getting totally wasted is ever a good idea or that it can be done mindfully. mindful hangovers, sure, but it rarely seems to lead to insight that changes behavior.
thanks for the question, jon. I'd love to have some write in and defend the party scene. I promise not to jump on anyone who does -- I'm curious what someone who does thinks about it.
thanks respondents for your information and your insights.
Middle Way
To your point, what I'm wondering is what is the middle way approach? 90% of what's below is "drinking is bad bad bad." Some really good points were made about the damage alcohol can cause. I have my own family history with addiction and am sensitive to the topic. But I posted the article in the first place in hopes of getting some conversation going about the Middle Way. I drink now and then, and I'm fortunate to never have had serious consequences in my personal life like described below. But I know people who have. On the other hand, I've had a lot of fun after a few drinks. I'm not asking if drinking is a path to enlightenment; I'm totally unqualified to have that conversation. I'm asking if there's a middle way. The Buddha went from a life of pleasure to asceticism to the middle way, but he was fully enlightened. I'm not. So what are middle way approaches to this question? I posted this video obviously as an extreme; it's not something I'd recommend for anyone. And yet there's learning to be had from it. When I've had too much to drink and I notice something about it––the consequences, my behavior, and even the fun––that's something, isn't it? When I notice that I'm avoiding pain, sadness, or my own impending death, that's something, isn't it? Thoughts? There is a lot here about the negative consequences of alcohol. I am sure they're all true. But people drink and will continue to drink. I'm curious about it and remain curious. "Only don't know" someone wise said. I really don't know.
sorry that was me
i wasn't signed in
middle middle
Ever hear an alcoholic or drug addict argue for their drug of choice? It is sad.
That is why you do not see people arguing for shots shots shots here. Anyone who might be so inclined probably cannot form a coherant argument, much less a convincing one.
Even more likely, they aren't hanging around this website commenting upon this article. They are probably using. That's usually more fun than thinking and writing (for them).
The middle way of alcohol is somewhere around the middle way with oranges. It is not an necessary and important habit in your life, so it is there when it is there, and not there when not.
I'm not with you on this
I don't think that every person who does shots shots shots on vacation or at a party is an addict. I think they're making an unwise choice that may lead to other unwise choices, and I don't endorse it or encourage it. but I think you can do it on occasion without earning such a damning label. and I know some mindful, thoughtful, intelligent people who get carried away on occasion -- one of the reasons I draw the line at two glasses of wine is because I know that if I have three I stop counting and just keep consuming.
I would say that if you want the complete lack of inhibition, if you know what you're doing and why, if you're in a safe place and know that there will be more sober people around to make sure you don't choke on your own vomit or drunk dial old enemies and who'll tell you what you did or said if you can't remember it so you can look at whether that's something you need to explore when you're rational, it's not the worst thing in the world. not a good tool but not in and of itself a bad one. it's how you use it.
I like your comparison to oranges -- have one when you want one, don't have one just because someone urges you to, appreciate the experience, and don't do it to the extent that you lose touch with your awareness of what you're doing.
I suppose...
If getting drunk is so worthy of a Buddhist's time, then teach an IDP class where everyone gets drunk and meditates. It'll be so fun.
how is this buddhist?
is it necessary? is it kind? is it true? are you the one to say it?
sarcasm is never right speech.
True.
Well said. I should have just said, "If getting drunk is so worthy of a Buddhist's time, then teach an IDP class where everyone gets drunk and meditates."
That challenge I mean honestly. The flip little comment I said at the end was unnecessary.
Who are you?
I don't endorse it or consider it wise
I just don't condemn everyone who does it as an addict. they're suffering too. and they're responding to their suffering in a way that creates more suffering.
I agree
Robert said, "Ever hear an alcoholic or drug addict argue for their drug of choice? It is sad. That is why you do not see people arguing for shots shots shots here. Anyone who might be so inclined probably cannot form a coherant argument, much less a convincing one." There are plenty of people who drink to excess who are not addicts. I suppose that if one is doing shots, one isn't thinking about suffering and is instead simply trying to avoid it. As we all do in different ways. Alcohol just has some more dangerous tendencies. But I avoid suffering and things as they are in different ways. I can play on the computer, facebook, twitter, I can eat, I can exercise, I can watch tv, I can get really really busy at work. I can get obsessed with Buddhist texts and ignore the reality that they're talking about. However, few of these strategies are as fraught with potential danger. Or are they? Hard to say. I could spend my life being "busy," or watching tv, or buying crap at expensive stores. However any of those strategies are reversible. The danger I suppose with alcohol and drugs is they can cause irrevocable damage. One car accident and it's all over... Complicated! I still believe there's a middle way....
catharsis
Maybe when you are talking about drinking as part of "having fun" in that wild, cut loose kind of way, you are thinking of it more from the point of view of it being cathartic and celebratory... there are rituals of this kind in every culture, and i think they have value... i'm totally not advocating drunken binges, but there is something we long for in getting lost from ourselves in that kind of ecstatic, joyful experience. you might have found at large crowd events like dancing in a club, Grateful Dead or hardcore shows, sports events, halloween parties, Carnivale, Mardi Gras. I have a great Thomas Merton quote about this i could try to find when i get home.
Celebration and catharsis that happen to include drinking are a different kind of inebriation from the kind of drinking that is trying to dull the pain of your life, etc etc. Is that what you are getting at maybe.... ?
Footloose
YOU DO NOT NEED ________ TO _________ .
Whatever it is you want to put in that blank, you don't need it.
Do it!
Everyone Who Drinks Is Not An Addict
Ok. Sure. So?
i'm in the
i'm in the parent-who-was-an-alcoholic club here , but specifically the form of alcoholism i watched destroy my father was binge drinking. he only drank when he was stressed but boy howdy, it was a lot. in the end, he died of a massive heart attack because he, in a not very well thought out attempt to 'protect' his health, stopped taking his heart medicine so he could drink, knowing that it was dangerous to mix the two. and while his binge drinking wasn't of the 'let's party!' nature, it was still an occasional rather than daily thing. i think there's a false assumption that in order to be an alcoholic, you have to drink every day. what i grew up seeing was a lack of ability to stop when starting during a stressful time. and it really only takes one binge to potentially destroy your life, figuratively or, in the case of my dad, literally.
and yes, i do agree that drinking in moderation isn't necessarily dangerous and certainly enjoy and appreciate a well crafted beer or glass of wine once in a while. but i'm not sure that i can agree that letting loose and getting plastered is ever beneficial. yes, our inhibitions are lowered and perhaps there's a sense that our minds are more open, but also lowered is our ability to make the best choices. it also worries me when i see women putting themselves at risk by ending up in a vulnerable state in a public place and, sadly, we've all heard the stories in the news of the sometimes horrifying results. and while i'm a big advocate of personal responsibility, there is an unfortunate social pressure put on men and woman alike to show how fun they can be by getting wasted (and then, often, tell stories the next day in a tone that implies a strange mix of regret and pride. we've all overheard this conversation on a sunday morning).
i guess what it really comes down to thoroughly and honestly assessing what is truly 'mindful' and what is an attempt to justify behavior that is on the cusp.
Fun.
I really like that you said:
"there is an unfortunate social pressure put on men and women alike to show how fun they can be..."
I see this a lot, not just regarding drinking. Our culture not only pressures us to buy, but to have fun, and to show ourselves having fun.
if you use everything in
if you use everything in your life as food for waking up, could that include alcohol? sure, why not ?
Drugs and alcohol can create "altered states" that shake up our prison-like thinking about ourselves and others. They can create cracks through which we can see another way of looking at things.
But at what cost? There is a lot of collateral damage to drinking. Whatever use the mind might get from it, there is always the danger that the body becomes addicted. Then the trouble starts. Like so many other posters have said, alcohol wreaks insane amounts of damage in people's lives and families. My dad died at 42 and alcohol was a big part of that. My brother's life is destroyed by alcoholism. But i don't find myself demonizing the use of alcohol (maybe i should). i will have beer or wine now and then with friends or my partner. i drank a lot as a teenager, then not at all while pregnant and when my kids were little. I felt a lot healthier without all that nasty stuff in my system.
Thoughts and emotions are troublesome enough without the distorting and exaggerating effects of chemicals added on.
But an attachment to righteousness about non-drinking and other forms of purity makes me a little wary as well. That path to waking up is covered in dirt. can you drink mindfully? i guess it all comes down to what you make of it... and also not hurting anyone else.
Not everything is subjective, especially this topic.
You mention that "Drugs and alcohol can create "altered states" that shake up our prison-like thinking about ourselves and others. They can create cracks through which we can see another way of looking at things."
This is one of the primary thoughts that I believe meditation proves untrue. How do you know when your discoveries and thoughts are wise, accurate, and present? When applying Buddhist thought to everyday life, translating those thoughts and ethics becomes quite complicated. How do I know what is right for others around me? How do I make big decisions about my career? What kind of romance do I want to have with my partner? Answering these questions is hard enough, and while there is a lot of subjectivity involved, me suddenly thinking that my father is the rosebud of ethical awareness put here on earth because the 5 rings of awareness have shifted their subtle rainbows to the drama of family enlightenment (<--- an example of bullshit that can be created conciously as an example of the kind of garbage I hear from potheads who actually believe it) is not a personal experience, it is delusion.
If you are sober, finding the 'right' solution, the 'right' path, the 'right' vehicle for every move means a quiet, sober, trained mind that needs to be awake in every moment.
As an artist, I am disdainful of anyone that needs drugs to 'free' their mind or body. They absolutely do not. They just need to practice their freaking art more. Or dance more.
The 'perspective' you see when you are high is delusional. D-E-L-U-S-I-O-N-A-L. Why do you think it ends, and you always end up back in the sober present? Why do you think that moment of OMG puts you back in a normal now? Why do you think people fixate on the drug? Because of the delusion that being high is real.
If you want to discover something about the human experience, meditate more.
i agree
i agree with you 100% on this.
and i deeply appreciate the strength of your feelings on the damage done by the delusion inherent in escapist altered states.
living in an alcoholic or drug-addicted family is hell. it is pain indescribable to watch a parent destroy themselves, hurt those around them and to experience the absolute betrayal of the parent-child relationship. i lived that too.
and when i was young, and unable to articulate or understand the pain, i turned mindlessly to alcohol and the party scene to numb the pain. but it was the music and the dancing and the experience of that vibrant energetic scene (punk shows & dj battles & the underground club scene where i grew up) that began to give me some traction and offer the beginning of a way out my self-identification with sadness and depression, tho they were escape as well, i think; the alcohol quickly became irrelevant, and i stopped drinking. and i watched the destruction it caused among my friends. my own experience was that the altered states of drugs and alcohol were total delusion, i agree. and they made me feel sick. my own path has been a messy one, with so much lostness and samsara.
this reality, every moment of every day, with all its beauty and its sadness, is far preferable to the misery of running away... whether into alcohol or habitual thought patterns or into the eyes or arms of a lover for respite.
i hope i didn't offend with my post... if i played devil's advocate, it is because i have heard that there are vasrayana teachers who will use some shocking means to "wake" their students form their impenetrable ideas about themselves. i'm certainly not advocating those means. but i know some people who feel it worked for them. (sometimes the cage of our thoughts is itself an altered state of sorts, deluded and far from reality.) and some of the same teachers will turn around and advocate abstinence and celibacy for the same reasons.
all of our mistakes, our messiness, our "dirt," our parents' dirt becomes the fuel for our own waking up. and all of our experiences disastrous or wonderful, if held mindfully. i love what you say about the middle way: drink with a full mindfulness of the experience, but remember that it is poison.
but i absolutely agree: more meditation, more dancing, more art! :)
I'm impressed with your abilities
The shots " were really helpful in getting me to act like an idiot. Though my meditation practice helped me to notice when I was about to say something hurtful, and keep my mouth shut."
not being snarky here -- you must have really baked it into your bones to be able to restrain yourself when drunk. I can't do that -- but I am a sad drunk, not an abusive one, and some of the inhibitions that get relaxed are walls that should come down anyway. but I have no ability to sit with those insights when drunk and I don't recall them the next day.
I'm from a family where alcoholism is rampant. I very rarely -- once every few years -- have more than two glasses of wine, and if I find myself needing a drink I don't have it. that's the time to meditate. but I'm lucky; I can stop at two glasses. I have friends who can't even consider that glass of wine without opening the door to a life of pain. you need to know who you are.
I don't think the culture depicted in the video -- and emulated by millions -- is healthy in any way. it's dehumanizing for everyone and fraught with problems other posters have mentioned.
The Dharma Punx version of the precepts says: "We undertake the precept of refraining from intoxicants that cause heedlessness or loss of awareness." for myself, I might revise that to refraining from using intoxicants to the extent that they cause heedlessness ...
I appreciate Chogyam Trungpa's brilliance, but I don't think his lifestyle is a healthy one. maybe that was a deliberate choice on his part, to keep reminding his students that he was human and unenlightened. I throw his sexual (mis)behavior in with his alcohol and drug use. stories I've heard from his students of his drunken speeches seem to me to show the brilliance of the students in finding meaning in his drunken ramblings. heck, maybe if I'd been a buddhist and looked upon my father as a teacher I'd be enlightened by now, not trying to untangle the very sticky webs left by my upbringing.
I pretty much agree with everything you said
Like I said, I still acted like an idiot. I credit my practice with helping me to not be a bigger idiot. So I might recognize my sadness or anger and go to bed rather than, say, yelling at my wife or getting in a fight. But it's still no guarantee. I've been quite an idiot when drinking and I posted this video as an extreme example. Not middle way at all.
me above
didn't realize I wasn't signed in before.
I didn't watch the video. I made assumptions from the photo in the embed. I find the objectification of women in that troubling. and my reactive reaction to seeing the picture on the IDP facebook post -- maybe it's changed -- was a strong dislike. all that flesh kind of overrides the message for me.
Sorry for the photo
It was a technical mistake. It was supposed to be the thumbnail of the band. My error in formatting.
Thank you for these awesome comments
i love hearing this stuff... Anonymous above seems to suggest a "middle way" approach--is there another "middle way" approach out there? Robert?
Does anyone see anything positive to be gained from a mindful look at drinking?
Yes.
There is a middle way. There is a mindful way.
Plan to cook a dinner. Go to a wine store. Have a conversation about what kind of wine would go perfectly with your dinner. As you eat, notice the flavors, and see if the wine compliments your meal.
Go out and eat. Get a beer. But choose a beer that you really want to experience. Treat it like wine. Savor it, and its effects. Take your time.
The shocking experience of hard alcohol. I think gin tastes great. Have a drink. Again, taste the freaking thing. If it burns, it burns, and that is an experience. I like jalapenos because it warms my stomach.
Do this just about as much as it seems like a choice, and not a habit.
But, like it or not, there are things that are poisons, and things that are not really poisonus. Alcohol is a poison. When we are drunk, we are a little bit dead medically speaking. We do not have to wait until we die from it to feel it. We just have to stop being drunk and be present with what is happening to our body to see it.
Water, on the other hand. Any arguments against water? Not very exciting. Not very loud. Not very club song worthy.
It can have the same deep resonant effect as alcohol if you just train your mind to be present. You don't need loud sounds and big drugs and large feelings to be present. You just need them because you are lazy.
As always, food (or drink) for thought, Jon
Alcohol and drugs can be dangerous, of course. I, too, have played the fool because of excess drink in the past, and I, too, have been a bit puzzled about the strict take on drink and drug in the Buddhist view. Thank you for sharing this.
I wonder how flexible this is. For example, drugs are not to be taken along the Eightfold Path, but every teacher I've ever heard speak on this adds the caveat, "Except for medicine, of course." Which always made me think, "Hmm, okay, no drugs, unless some guy from a pharmaceutical company says so? No beer, no, but all the barely tested psychotropics you can get." So, we're okay with the idea that somebody is there to draw the line... but I'd rather it be me, and I think the same can apply to alcohol.
Alcohol can be insidious, and groups can exert great pressure to "have one more," but it is ultimately for me and my practice to notice what is happening, be aware and mindful, and make a decision about my actions, just as with anything in my life. Moreover, as a proponent of the sangha, I believe we have a collective responsibility to make sure that everyone is being responsible and respectful. That can get ugly, and involve a great deal of pain. But in that way, it is no different than most walks of life.
Thanks Edoardo
Great points as always. I had hoped to incite conversation here, and appreciate the thoughtful response.
As I said, very
As I said, very thought-provoking. Though I should point out that in the "we all draw our own lines" that I mentioned, this video is WAY WAY WAY past anything I find remotely healthy. This video is about total abandonment, going blind and, of course, misogynism.
Totally
I picked it for how extreme it was and how ubiquitous in clubs this winter
I think it was well chosen in
I think it was well chosen in that regard as it's the extreme that defines the issue. If alcohol was never anything more than moderate in effect, the discussion doesn't take place. But we need to examine our relationship to alcohol in terms of the extreme.
Experience
It feels like 75% of my family is addicted to alcohol, and not a one of them ever came up to me peacefully and told me how it has helped them have a happy life overall. Most of the time, as the poster above described, violence, aggression, sickness, and death are the result of the use of alcohol and other drugs. Have you ever had your drunk family members call you up and scream at you incoherantly telling you how awful you were? Ever had someone drive you to work drunk at 5am? People standing outside your house threatening to kill you? Children watching their parents smoke crack for three days straight? I bet you have, but you might have labeled it as "that other person's problem."
So, yeah, having some beer or wine or hard liquor is not going to kill you. As I am learning sadly, even months and months of smoking crack does not immediately kill you. But I guarantee you that one night of shots shots shots shots shots shots shots and you will suffer. ONE NIGHT. Meditate when you are drunk, or when you are waking up the next morning, and I guarantee you, you will see the wisdom of choosing a different consumption choice.
Combine shots shots shots shots shots with the atmosphere of the video you posted, and a lifestyle that celebrates it, and welcome to the world where I'll see you suffering more than almost anyone in the world until you stop. Sadly, this is something that too few people will believe until they experience it for themselves.
Could an artist have made the same humour by replacing shots with pots? And having pots flying around? Celebrating the ability to boil water, hold stew, etc. Probably...
Would it have made it to the IDP website?
Maybe there is a funny video out there about sobriety and healthy eating? Sprouts, sprouts, sprouts, sprouts...
By the way, this makes me angry, so I challenge anyone who disagrees with me to a Marvel vs Capcom 3 contest. We'll eat fruit and make pizza we'll have more fun that you would have had had you spent $85 drinking.
Drink, Feck
I have worked in the drinks industry doing door work, picking up drunks from the floor breaking up drunken fights, stopping sexual assaults. I have seen peoples lives ruined by alcohol and I have friends die from alcohol poisoning. So even ...though this video purports to promote the fun of being drunk it leaves out the enslavement and dumbing down of the individuals who take it to excess.
Alcohol allows us to be free in one way and enslaved in another.
Apologies if I am coming across on the strong side, but I have seen too many lives affected by drink, or the excesses of strong drink.
Jon I am not too sure how to repost it, but you are welcome to repost it with my blessing and permission.
One of my best friends died from alcohol poisoning, (on my stag night), he went to sleep vomited and didn't wake up. Another two had to have radical surgery to have parts of their liver and pancreas removed due to alcohol poisoning. My uncle is an alcoholic and so are some of my aunts, so my family have a genetic weakness and low tolerance to alcohol.
On friday, saturday and sunday nights our hospitals worldwide are crammed full with people that have ended up there due to alcohol.
At its worse Rape and physical assault can be linked to the stupidity of being inebriated and yet we continue to ply it to our Youth, it is like cigaretes damaging to society, to ourselves, our friends family and strangers.
Yet I drink but only in very small quantities. One drink per hour, three drinks at the most and only about once a month. Social drinking is acceptable by me in limited quantities, but when our drinking affects our own mental, physical and spirtiual health and those around us then I have to question it and those who sell it and advertise it.
Drink Feck 2
Hello I wrote the previous post (drink feck) my internet nickname is Dagda Segais and I am from Ireland, where I teach yoga, martial arts and meditation.
The Drink Feck comment refers to a catchphrase from a drunken alcoholic priest from the Irish TV "Father Ted" comedy series.
Over the years I have seen a lot of heartache from alcohol abuse. A lot of people seem to withdraw into alcoholic stupor to escape the pain of real life, their future fears, their past memories and experiences. That with the addiction to the substance once hooked means that all drink should have a serious risk to health warning like cigaretes.
Below is an article about drink and its relationship to rape in Ireland.
Humanbeings being what they are I believe that these findings will have revelance in all countries.
The Irish Times - Thursday, December 2, 2010
At least 88% of rape cases drink-related - study
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1202/1224284572595.html
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